I like the idea, although I don't think I agree. I would agree with his stance on covenant theology, but his response to the question itself leaves a problem. For one, I don't think that he's done true justice to the doctrine of election. (I can't believe I just accused John Piper of not doing justice to the doctrine of election...) The common response to the doctrine of election is that God elects those he foreknows will accept him. I think we both would disagree with that understanding of election, and would agree that election is God's sovereign choice before creation, independent of our human circumstance. I'm not sure there's a great scriptural case that God elects those he foreknows will not have the chance to know him. While I disagree with the idea that God elects those he foreknows will "freely chose him", I think I disagree with the statement that God freely chooses all who he foreknows who will not have the chance to fre ely chose him. This is not to diminish God's grace in any capacity, but I'm not sure scripture goes so far as to say that all who are incapable of knowing God in life are elect. Scripture makes no mention of this so called "age of accountability", and I think it dangerous for believers to try to read a comfortable interpretation into what can be a very uncomfortable doctrine.
With that though, there's the dichotomy of dealing with what I believe to be a difficult truth, and the application of that truth. Its one thing for me to sit in the privacy of my office and say: Ultimately the salvation of somebody who isn't of mental capacity to know God, is solely in God's sovereign hands and we are not privy to how he judges those in this situation. I think that we can rejoice in the knowledge that those who are too young to know God have a chance to be with him through God's sovereign election, despite the fact that we aren't privy to how that works or what that means. And its another thing for me to stand with my former youth leaders who lost their two year old daughter due to a complication from heart surgery and grieve with them and deal with this truth. Obviously, that isn't the time to debate an issue like this, and in a situation its my job to comfort them.
I don't know if this makes any sense. I'd like to know what you think.
To keep it short, I completely agree with you. Though I would love to be able to say with confidence that God has elected all those without mental capacity to know God, I cannot. The Bible does not tell us enough for us to be able to draw that conclusion. And believe me, this is hard for me to say. Piper has been one of my self-proclaimed mentors for many years through his books and sermons, and I can credit much of my spiritual development (aside from the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit to him). However, I think he is pushing the limits of what the bible says here.
Here's what we do know about infants and salvation. Somehow, after David's son died, he knew that one day, he would go to him in heaven. How did David know he would see his son in heaven after he died? We don't know. The other thing that we know is that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while he was still in his mother's womb. This gives me great hope. Somehow, it is possible for the Holy Spirit to be active in the lives of infants before they are even born. I hope that all infants are elect, but I don't think that we can know for sure either way from what the Bible tells us. We simply do now know enough. Only God knows.
Thanks for reading my blog. I enjoy your comments and thoughts.
Hey Jon,
ReplyDeleteI like the idea, although I don't think I agree. I would agree with his stance on covenant theology, but his response to the question itself leaves a problem. For one, I don't think that he's done true justice to the doctrine of election. (I can't believe I just accused John Piper of not doing justice to the doctrine of election...) The common response to the doctrine of election is that God elects those he foreknows will accept him. I think we both would disagree with that understanding of election, and would agree that election is God's sovereign choice before creation, independent of our human circumstance. I'm not sure there's a great scriptural case that God elects those he foreknows will not have the chance to know him. While I disagree with the idea that God elects those he foreknows will "freely chose him", I think I disagree with the statement that God freely chooses all who he foreknows who will not have the chance to fre ely chose him. This is not to diminish God's grace in any capacity, but I'm not sure scripture goes so far as to say that all who are incapable of knowing God in life are elect. Scripture makes no mention of this so called "age of accountability", and I think it dangerous for believers to try to read a comfortable interpretation into what can be a very uncomfortable doctrine.
With that though, there's the dichotomy of dealing with what I believe to be a difficult truth, and the application of that truth. Its one thing for me to sit in the privacy of my office and say: Ultimately the salvation of somebody who isn't of mental capacity to know God, is solely in God's sovereign hands and we are not privy to how he judges those in this situation. I think that we can rejoice in the knowledge that those who are too young to know God have a chance to be with him through God's sovereign election, despite the fact that we aren't privy to how that works or what that means. And its another thing for me to stand with my former youth leaders who lost their two year old daughter due to a complication from heart surgery and grieve with them and deal with this truth. Obviously, that isn't the time to debate an issue like this, and in a situation its my job to comfort them.
I don't know if this makes any sense. I'd like to know what you think.
in HIM
Bob
To keep it short, I completely agree with you. Though I would love to be able to say with confidence that God has elected all those without mental capacity to know God, I cannot. The Bible does not tell us enough for us to be able to draw that conclusion. And believe me, this is hard for me to say. Piper has been one of my self-proclaimed mentors for many years through his books and sermons, and I can credit much of my spiritual development (aside from the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit to him). However, I think he is pushing the limits of what the bible says here.
ReplyDeleteHere's what we do know about infants and salvation. Somehow, after David's son died, he knew that one day, he would go to him in heaven. How did David know he would see his son in heaven after he died? We don't know. The other thing that we know is that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while he was still in his mother's womb. This gives me great hope. Somehow, it is possible for the Holy Spirit to be active in the lives of infants before they are even born. I hope that all infants are elect, but I don't think that we can know for sure either way from what the Bible tells us. We simply do now know enough. Only God knows.
Thanks for reading my blog. I enjoy your comments and thoughts.